New Math or What makes a breeder?

Someone was interested in Tux, one of our available male puppies.

She requested more information and a contract, through a friend.
So, because of the friendship, we sent everything on, without first speaking with her.
YES, THAT WAS OUR MISTAKE!
But every now and then, we go back to believing that everyone has the breed's best interest at heart and that they are truthful and are exactly how they represent themselves.  Time to throw those darn rose-colored glasses out again.  It's just that they seem to creep back in, because we want to believe the best in people.

Here is what happened.
Friend K:  I want to breed Havanese Puppy who is just 16 months old to a bitch owned by my friend 'D' long time breeder.  In fact she might want to breed a couple of her girls to him.
Us (OK, ME):  No.  Remember that contract?   Nobody gets bred until they pass all of their OFFAs, which means that he must be over 2.
K:  OK, just thought I'd ask.  My friend D saw Tux on your facebook and is really interested.  Please send her information and a contract. (she included her email)
Me:  OK, will do.
I sent all of Tux's information and a contract, and a nice note in an email.

In the mean time, I looked up D's website.
Shortly after sending the contract, we received this email response from her:

Thank-you Dave,

I think the pup is very cute  from what I can see and has possibilities, but as a 16 year breeder and handler of Havanese I think your contract is all one sided  to you and has nothing to offer the buyer.  That you retain total breeding control over the dog , not even guaranteeing that a finished OFA  CH. bitch would  be approved by you and not allowing  the same curtsey of any bitch you would bring to the stud to be approved by the buyer, again all in your favor.

You have the right according to your contract never to allow  the buyer to  use their dog at stud if you choose to do so .I  would not  want to buy a show -breeding dog from you if I could never breed him.

Thanks  for your time,

D  

I have deleted the rest of her name.  Why I am 'protecting' her identity, I don't know.  High road, I guess.

Now, let us return to her website: 

About a half dozen 'show dogs' listed and several puppies.  On their puppy page they advertise: 

"They are all AKC registered from health tested parents."

Well this is true, sort of.  Some of the parents have Eyes and Patellas, some have Heart and Hips, some have Elbows and Baer.  None have more that 3 tests, and nothing consistent.  

Someone who has a 'Music Ministry' on their website would never deceive anyone would they?   My ex's family were super religious, but when it came to making money, it was 'anything goes.'  And I have run into that more than once, in the dog show world. 

In her email, D says, that she is a 16 year breeder and handler of Havanese.  Well, according to her website, the dog that she has listed as her first Havanese was born in June 2003, making him only 11 1/2 years old, and a male.  Owning a male does not make one a breeder.  Let's just play with this a bit, since Dave wouldn't let me publish the math on another breeder who, in her young life, had bred something like 35 litters, making her a fetus when the first one was bred, if all generations were health certified prior to breeding, but I can't go there.  

Back to D.  Her male is 11 1/2.  He did not turn 2 until June 2005, which means the earliest he should have been bred was July 2005.  But again, when did she get a female?  Let's give her the benefit of the doubt and say that someone sold her a Champion health tested bitch (not listed on her website), in season, and she bred in July 2005.  She would not be a breeder until that time, making her a breeder of Havanese for 9 1/2 years, NOT 16. 

So far, this woman has wanted to breed to one of my males, and has insulted me and my contract, and LIED to us, AND I STILL DON'T KNOW HER LAST NAME OR RECOGNIZE ANY DOGS OR KENNEL NAMES IN HER PEDIGREES. 

Now to what she says about our puppy contract. 

Why on earth would anyone buy a male show dog if they didn't have the option of breeding him later?
She has skimmed the contract and made assumptions.  

Here is my response to her, which was cc'd to both owners of the underage stud that she wanted to use:

Dxxxxx,

It is not our intent to prevent a puppy buyer from breeding the dog.  If it was, why would anyone buy a dog on that kind of contract?  It is only our intent to do what we can to ensure that only the healthiest possible dogs are bred to improve the breed.  We do not just breed to produce puppies. 

What our contract does say is:  As long as he has his championship and passes all of his health testing at the levels stated in the contract, he can be bred to pretty much any bitch who has done the same.  All health testing cannot be completed until a dog reaches the age of 24 months, therefore, he/she shall not be bred until all of the results are received from OFFA.  

Regarding breeding a bitch that we own or co-own to a co-owned stud dog of our breeding: 

It is our bloodline!  

If we were to bring a bitch that we own or co-own to that dog for use at stud, there is no reason that we must ask anyone which of our dogs we can or cannot use. 

The requirement of written justification, to the buyer, as to why we would disapprove of a particular breeding is only for their benefit.  It is two-fold protection.  It is a safety double check to ensure that the bitch or stud does indeed have all of their health testing, and it prevents us from 'just saying no' without a reason.  We would have to give the buyer a reason in writing as to why we would not approve a particular breeding.  In addition to the requirements for mates stated in the contract, perhaps we know something about that particular dog or line that you may not.  For example a particular top winning stud dog throws a lot of bite and dentition issues.  Do they advertise it?  Of course not.  He was being heavily used for a while and we started seeing a lot of that problem in puppies and dogs in the ring.  When one of our puppy people wanted to breed her bitch to him, we told her what we had been seeing.  She asked the owner of the stud dog as well as contacted several people who had dogs sired by him.  For the most part, they admitted, that yes a lot of the puppies in their litters had some dentition or bite problem.  Nobody puts it all together until you have someone who sees multiple puppies with the same problems, out of different bitches, sired by the same stud.  The individuals thought it must have just been their bitch, or just a bad match, until they realize that there was pattern.

It is not our intent to keep someone from selling stud services.  It is our intent to help improve the lines.  If a bitch or dog has not passed their OFFA health certifications and has not proven themselves in the show ring then it is our belief that they should not be bred.  That said, there may be extenuating circumstances that might allow for a bitch or a dog who is not a champion to be bred, but they would still have to have passed all of our required OFFA testing.  There are very, very, very few reasons that a male would be bred before they were old enough to have all of their official OFFA testing, there is no reason that a female should. 

On your website, you advertise your puppies as having  'health tested' parents.  I just checked through the OFFA website and none of the dogs listed on your 'show dog' page have enough health testing for a CHIC, let alone the health testing that we require.  I understand that BAER is difficult to get.  We have to drive 3 to 4 hours for BAER testing so wait for it to be offered with health clinics at shows.  Everything else is easily accessible anywhere in the US or Canada, and if a dog is to be bred, it must be done.

Our health guarantee goes to the age of 2 1/2 years to provide adequate time to pass his OFFAs, and allow him to be bred at the earliest age.  If he does not pass his OFFAs as stated in the contract, he may be returned for a replacement, show quality, dog. 

Multiple Bests in Show have been won with dogs of our breeding.  We have won multiple Best of Breed at National as well as Regional Specialties, and numerous other National Sweepstakes wins, and other top placements.  So obviously we are doing something right, and the people who have puppies from us don't seem to have complaints.  

You say that you have been a Havanese breeder and Handler for 16 years, yet your website says that Gabe was your first Havanese.  His birth date is listed as June 1, 2003, which means that he could not be shown until almost 2004, and should not have been bred until at least July 2005.  By my calculations, he is only 11 1/2 years old at this time.   Owning a male does not make one a breeder. 

I do find it almost comical when we receive a note like yours about our contract.  Then a year or so later, sometimes sooner, we find out that the person has copied many parts of our contract, sometimes verbatim.  

Also, if I spend this much time on a response I usually know the person's last name.  Since we are extremely proud of what we have accomplished, our names, first and last, are available on our website, our emails, our business cards, our blog, and in all advertisements.

Thank you for your interest in our dogs, but due to your lack of commitment to the health of this breed, we will not be able to reach an agreement for a puppy purchase or stud service to our dogs.

Sincerely,

Darlene and David Scheiris 

TOO HARSH?  I THINK NOT.

Why am I talking about this now?  BECAUSE SHE WILL, and I just want the facts out there.  

Not only whatever this Music Ministry, "16 Year" Havanese breeder, who neither Dave or I have ever heard of, might say. 

This is another example of why everyone, whether shopping for pet or show, needs to do their homework.  D had minor misspellings in some of her dog's names on her website, and I had to put together her show photos, with the show results (it takes skills to find show results from 10 years ago), then with the AKC site and OFFA to find the truth.